Comments on: JavaFX and its future http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/ Making Software Applications Wed, 17 Nov 2010 20:00:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Leonardo http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-335 Leonardo Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:02:10 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-335 Don't know if this thread is still open. I agree with most of comments, but there's a point all of you are missing: you are talking with "internet" in mind, and mostly with the idea of some "fast and furios" user which is gonna surf and choose or discard the application he wants. RIA stands for application, not for "rich internet web site". That's partially true, but suppose you are accessing your bank account. I would honestly prefer to wait the application to load, and be sure of a solid rock technology behind, rather than fast loading but buggy. So...no matter of waiting, you don't have to test, you have to use. There's a lot of software which has loading time, photoshop, flash, office, openoffice...don't know why the loading time is not allowed for java. Today the browser is no more an html renderer, but it's a container for something else (flash, media player ecc...), it's time now to change point of view and think about application. I was one of the first flash developer, with flash 3. At that time everybody wanted flash web site, I am speaking about entire web site made with flash. Soon...people realized that flash was just not made for it...and by now I cannot see a web site or serious application made entirely with flash or flex. Market is not requiring much flex or flash developer...market is asking for java, .net developer... Software like flash or flex, require the "one man show" mind. Java or .net instead can separate layer (in theory), and allow companies to split duties and use staff knowledge. Javafx should do a step in this direction too... You should have notice that application and games on iPhone takes a few seconds to load, but no one complains. Don’t know if this thread is still open. I agree with most of comments, but there’s a point all of you are missing:
you are talking with “internet” in mind, and mostly with the idea of some “fast and furios” user which is gonna surf and choose or discard the application he wants. RIA stands for application, not for “rich internet web site”.
That’s partially true, but suppose you are accessing your bank account. I would honestly prefer to wait the application to load, and be sure of a solid rock technology behind, rather than fast loading but buggy.
So…no matter of waiting, you don’t have to test, you have to use.
There’s a lot of software which has loading time, photoshop, flash, office, openoffice…don’t know why the loading time is not allowed for java.
Today the browser is no more an html renderer, but it’s a container for something else (flash, media player ecc…), it’s time now to change point of view and think about application.

I was one of the first flash developer, with flash 3. At that time everybody wanted flash web site, I am speaking about entire web site made with flash. Soon…people realized that flash was just not made for it…and by now I cannot see a web site or serious application made entirely with flash or flex. Market is not requiring much flex or flash developer…market is asking for java, .net developer…
Software like flash or flex, require the “one man show” mind. Java or .net instead can separate layer (in theory), and allow companies to split duties and use staff knowledge.
Javafx should do a step in this direction too…

You should have notice that application and games on iPhone takes a few seconds to load, but no one complains.

]]> By: commenter http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-137 commenter Thu, 30 Apr 2009 23:31:27 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-137 Also for client side deployments the absolute MAX amount of time that a java application should take is less than ~5 seconds some leeway for 10 but you risk losing a good portion of your audience. and the JRE needs to be a helluva smaller (2-3 megs) and a helluva lot faster in load up and start times. Yes, yes some dumbass is gonna show me a graph explicityly showing how much faster JRE is compared to C++ programs or even flash. But I'd hate to break it to you, in every single instance for me personally, sophisticated Flex programs have utterly beat javafx programs in start up times. Sun or Oraclesun or the sun of Oracle need to find out how the hell to rid of those damn security prompts so anybody can run a javafx program without a heart attack that their system is about to be compromised. Maybe give a silent mode option? For F**ks sake man more stuff less fluff Also for client side deployments the absolute MAX amount of time that a java application should take is less than ~5 seconds some leeway for 10 but you risk losing a good portion of your audience. and the JRE needs to be a helluva smaller (2-3 megs) and a helluva lot faster in load up and start times. Yes, yes some dumbass is gonna show me a graph explicityly showing how much faster JRE is compared to C++ programs or even flash. But I’d hate to break it to you, in every single instance for me personally, sophisticated Flex programs have utterly beat javafx programs in start up times. Sun or Oraclesun or the sun of Oracle need to find out how the hell to rid of those damn security prompts so anybody can run a javafx program without a heart attack that their system is about to be compromised. Maybe give a silent mode option? For F**ks sake man more stuff less fluff

]]> By: commenter http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-136 commenter Thu, 30 Apr 2009 23:22:21 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-136 I agree with many of the posters, Sun Or Oracle or Oraclesun, really need to invest top DESIGNERS for javaFX. It's almost astounding at the level of incompetence Sun has invested in this technology and in java in general. Make no mistake things change very damn fast in the technology markets. And if Sun cannot pull it's head out of it's ass fast enough to explain in CLEAR language just what the hell javaxFX is and what it can do for developers and designers. Well make no mistake the next huge frontier is the moblie market (mobile phones, flexible screens, wearble displays) where awesome, intuitive, scalable interfaces will be the norm Java really, really needs JavaFX or some coherent standard supported spin off of this to be revlevant in that market. Enough server technology make some progress on client side. As in some cases the boundary between the two will cease to exist. I agree with many of the posters, Sun Or Oracle or Oraclesun, really need to invest top DESIGNERS for javaFX. It’s almost astounding at the level of incompetence Sun has invested in this technology and in java in general. Make no mistake things change very damn fast in the technology markets. And if Sun cannot pull it’s head out of it’s ass fast enough to explain in CLEAR language just what the hell javaxFX is and what it can do for developers and designers. Well make no mistake the next huge frontier is the moblie market (mobile phones, flexible screens, wearble displays) where awesome, intuitive, scalable interfaces will be the norm Java really, really needs JavaFX or some coherent standard supported spin off of this to be revlevant in that market. Enough server technology make some progress on client side. As in some cases the boundary between the two will cease to exist.

]]> By: JavaFX GUI components http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-34 JavaFX GUI components Wed, 04 Feb 2009 08:38:30 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-34 [...] time now playing with and investigating JavaFX. I wont go over some of the big positives I recently discussed but instead will focus on one particular topic - GUI components (or simply referred to as [...] [...] time now playing with and investigating JavaFX. I wont go over some of the big positives I recently discussed but instead will focus on one particular topic – GUI components (or simply referred to as [...]

]]> By: Jethro Grassie http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-9 Jethro Grassie Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:39:35 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-9 @milan, This is an area I know Sun are attempting to address - load time. Its like I have already stated, it feels beta at present. This is not to say Sun wont address things, I'm sure they will. Just sooner rather than later I hope. @Juan, Sure, a big "if", but Sun are certainly making a big effort, I wouldn't write this technology off just yet. Also, I actually feel JavaFX is a simpler and easier technology to understand for developers. An example of AIR problematic understanding, just start looking at all the sandbox issues! This post isn't feature comparison or "which is better, AIR or JavaFX?", rather a look at where JavaFX is now and where it plans to go and what we like about it. We use Flex/AIR and Silverlight on many projects, just that we feel these technologies lack in various areas JavaFX plans to exploit. Which is why we will keep an eye on it ;) @milan,
This is an area I know Sun are attempting to address – load time. Its like I have already stated, it feels beta at present. This is not to say Sun wont address things, I’m sure they will. Just sooner rather than later I hope.

@Juan,
Sure, a big “if”, but Sun are certainly making a big effort, I wouldn’t write this technology off just yet. Also, I actually feel JavaFX is a simpler and easier technology to understand for developers.
An example of AIR problematic understanding, just start looking at all the sandbox issues!

This post isn’t feature comparison or “which is better, AIR or JavaFX?”, rather a look at where JavaFX is now and where it plans to go and what we like about it. We use Flex/AIR and Silverlight on many projects, just that we feel these technologies lack in various areas JavaFX plans to exploit. Which is why we will keep an eye on it ;)

]]> By: milan http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-8 milan Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:22:57 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-8 Problem is loading time. Yes, java is better, more mature etc, better in almost every field... but hasn't ubiquity of flash player. Why? It's too heavy for ria's, on the web today no-one want to wait 10, 20 secs for app to load up. IMHO, a lot of flex apps are also crossing this limit. It's all about speed. my 0.2 $ Problem is loading time. Yes, java is better, more mature etc, better in almost every field… but hasn’t ubiquity of flash player. Why? It’s too heavy for ria’s, on the web today no-one want to wait 10, 20 secs for app to load up.
IMHO, a lot of flex apps are also crossing this limit. It’s all about speed.
my 0.2 $

]]> By: Juan Manuel http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-7 Juan Manuel Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:20:53 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-7 "Brining it all together, if Sun can deliver and then get companies to adopt" This is a really big if. From my experience, the technologies that have won a place in the market, were not necessarily the most complex or feature complete, but the ones that were introduced at the right time, were simple and understandable enough for developers to adopt it. “Brining it all together, if Sun can deliver and then get companies to adopt”

This is a really big if.

From my experience, the technologies that have won a place in the market, were not necessarily the most complex or feature complete, but the ones that were introduced at the right time, were simple and understandable enough for developers to adopt it.

]]> By: Rob McKeown http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-6 Rob McKeown Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:00:31 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-6 When you create Flex applications that are going to be web-based and deployed with AIR, you don't have to maintain two separate codebases. You can structure your projects so that most of the app's code is shared between the two. Obviously there are many cases where applications should perform differently when running in the browser vs. the desktop. I doubt many applications add value as desktop applications unless they have functionality that can't exist in a browser anyway. When you create Flex applications that are going to be web-based and deployed with AIR, you don’t have to maintain two separate codebases. You can structure your projects so that most of the app’s code is shared between the two. Obviously there are many cases where applications should perform differently when running in the browser vs. the desktop. I doubt many applications add value as desktop applications unless they have functionality that can’t exist in a browser anyway.

]]> By: Jethro Grassie http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-3 Jethro Grassie Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:52:16 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-3 I disagree. The reason the JavaFX demo's are not up to much is nothing to do with a designer developer divide, more like Sun dont have any decent designers working on them and the technology is still very beta-like. Its all about the tooling and workflow to get a decent designer and developer interaction. This is why Adobe have spent soo much money in development of better Flex, Flash, Photoshop and now Catalyst/Thermo integration. I'm not saying developers cant also be designers and vice-versa, in fact we have a couple of people like that here. Just that the tooling and technology needs to be right to split design and code. I disagree. The reason the JavaFX demo’s are not up to much is nothing to do with a designer developer divide, more like Sun dont have any decent designers working on them and the technology is still very beta-like.

Its all about the tooling and workflow to get a decent designer and developer interaction.

This is why Adobe have spent soo much money in development of better Flex, Flash, Photoshop and now Catalyst/Thermo integration.

I’m not saying developers cant also be designers and vice-versa, in fact we have a couple of people like that here. Just that the tooling and technology needs to be right to split design and code.

]]> By: jason http://blog.engage-encore.com/index.php/2008/12/08/javafx-future/comment-page-1/#comment-2 jason Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:24:04 +0000 http://blog.engage-encore.com/?p=72#comment-2 Thats the problem. Development shops like to keep design away from coders and the reverse. That's why you end up with RIA's like the JavaFX demos that seem boxy, mechanical, jerky, and feel and function awkwardly. Its how the end result of Java apps always feel like Microsoft Windows OS. This keep a divide is why JavaFX and Silverlight won't ever take off. Neither can capture those middle people, like Flash developers, who can do both. Thats the problem. Development shops like to keep design away from coders and the reverse. That’s why you end up with RIA’s like the JavaFX demos that seem boxy, mechanical, jerky, and feel and function awkwardly. Its how the end result of Java apps always feel like Microsoft Windows OS.

This keep a divide is why JavaFX and Silverlight won’t ever take off. Neither can capture those middle people, like Flash developers, who can do both.

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